Proviron! - Here's a topic we can debate..

[Juice Authority]

TweetBefore that thread on Nelson was deleted you suggested that I bring up a topic where you can hand me my lunch so to speak. Ok, the topic is Proviron and whether or not it's effective as an anti-e'. Now, there is little in the way of scientific research that proves it acts as an anti-aromatase or anything. My contention here, mainly from personal experience substantiated in part by Big Cat's profile on Proviron is that Proviron prevents estrogen formation, which is what leads to gyno. Proviron is a DHT and acts as an anti-aromatase. Here's what Big Cat has to say...

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

When challenged he recently posted the following:

Big Cat recently posted the following in regards to his statements on Proviron:

"there is no proven effect of proviron on estrogen management. There is no evidence it acts as an anti-aromatase or anything. Ok, I won't deny it is of course, time has proven its efficacy. But its certainly a poor choice if estrogen blockage is your primary course of action. Proviron would be a good choice to slightly lower estrogen to within maintainable ranges, but for actually inhibiting aromatization I would think something like arimidex is more suited. "

So, my contention is still that Proviron is a DHT and acts as anti-aromatase so if you're erstrogen sensitive and gyno prone Proviron at 25-50mg's ed will reduce estrogen levels, which leads to gyno, while enhancing the potency of testosterone in the body. In order words you kill two birds with one stone - the ultimate anti-e. I have no scientific data to back this up. My challenge to you to find the evidence that invalidates my contention....play ball.....batter up...

[Juice Authority]

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Originally posted by teekahty
I am not YJ and I am positive he can speak for him self , but . since this an open forum I will give my two cents ..... you have picked the winning side , I agree with you , as I am sure most will . and I know this from manuals and that I have read along with personal use . in 90% of my cycles My evidence to back my argument :"due its extremely high affinity for plasma binding proteins such as shbg , proviron may actually work better as a synergistic combo with most steroids displacing a higher percentage into a free unbound state. Athletes normally use this drug as an anti-estrogen . It is believed to act as an antiaromatose in the body, slowing the conversion of steroids into estrogen, a result somewhat comparable to Arimidex. In contrast to Nolvadex which only blocks the ability of estrogen to bind and activate receptors in certain tissues . Most athletes choose to take both Nolvadex and proviron at the same time during strongly estrogenic cycles, both drugs attacking estrogen from different angles". ..... why not pick something that you two disagree on and debate that or better yet . let it go ..... stay at Elite where you obviously feel more at home . and away from YJ if you discount his opinions so much ?

It was meant to be a friendly debate but if my post has your panties in an uproar then delete it. Who's discounting his opinions anyway? He was the one who suggested this on the Nelson thread. I picked this topic since public opinion seems to be divided on this issue and there really is no concrete scientific evidence out there to substantiate either side. I was most interested in seeing his input on this especially since the use of Proviron as an anti-aromatase is a relaively new concept. If nothing else people here can gather a good deal on information on the subject and make more informed decisions when it comes to anti-e's.

Originally posted by INTIMID8OR3
I CONCUR !!

LOL...thanks for chiming in. Duly noted.

[Canuck4]

TweetWow, some very good points were brought up.
Myself, Im still kinda sceptical about proviron.
Id like to see YJ's view on this also.

[Juice Authority]

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Originally posted by Canuck4
Wow, some very good points were brought up.
Myself, Im still kinda sceptical about proviron.
Id like to see YJ's view on this also.

Ok, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here and take the other side since teekahty seems to think I picked the winning side.

Proviron does NOT share all of DHT's characteristics. There is no evidence that shows Proviron being effective as an anti-e. There is also no reference in the scientific literature demonstrating its binding affinity to the aromatase enzyme. It does bind to shbg but it releases more estrogen than testosterone. Simply by taking more test you will reduce the amount of shbg and increase your free test and save money at the same time.

For all the other anti-e's commonly recommended there is a ton of scientific evidence that they actually either block the production of estrogen or bind/block the estrogen receptors. For proviron there is NO evidence except people's personal experience and written opinions without actual references to the science. There is some anecdotal evidence out there that suggests it prevents estrogen build-up but nothing concrete. At least nolvadex has been clinically shown to reduce or totally eliminate gyno and it is cheaper.

[pigmeat]

TweetI have never used proviron soley as an anti-e,but i do use it after stopping nolvadex to stop the possible rebound effect. I am sensitive to estrogen,so i not taking any chances and stick to things that have been proven to work.

[Juice Authority]

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Originally posted by pigmeat
I have never used proviron soley as an anti-e,but i do use it after stopping nolvadex to stop the possible rebound effect. I am sensitive to estrogen,so i not taking any chances and stick to things that have been proven to work.

Thank you. Was that so hard? So, you use Proviron "after" you stop taking Nolva? Does this conintue into your post-cycle? You realize that taking proviron post-cycle can hinder recovery, right? It is mildly suppressive to the htpa. Any thoughts on that?

[pigmeat]

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Originally posted by pudgy
thats enough bro. live and let live. thanks for the loyalty but no drama is a beautiful thing

you are right Enough drama

[pigmeat]

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Originally posted by Juice Authority
Thank you. Was that so hard? So, you use Proviron "after" you stop taking Nolva? Does this conintue into your post-cycle? You realize that taking proviron post-cycle can hinder recovery, right? It is mildly suppressive to the htpa. Any thoughts on that?

Small talked me into a proviron bridge one time and it seemed to workgood. As i said,i am sensitive to estrogen so i run nolva throughout pct,then run proviron at 25mg for another 2 weeks.since i have been doing this i no longer get gyno symptoms post pct.

[Juice Authority]

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Originally posted by pigmeat
Small talked me into a proviron bridge one time and it seemed to workgood. As i said,i am sensitive to estrogen so i run nolva throughout pct,then run proviron at 25mg for another 2 weeks.since i have been doing this i no longer get gyno symptoms post pct.

Well, small is wrong. Actually he's dead wrong and that is probably some of the worst advice one can give. A Proviron bridge? Please explain how that works to reduce estrogen rebound after PCT. Once the AAS compound has cleared the body there is no estrogen rebound that takes place so after you're through with post-cycle therapy taking proviron is very counter-productive. I wonder if Small can produce any evidence whatsoever that validates this "proviron bridge". I'll bet $50,000 to your $1 says he can't.

[pigmeat]

Tweetthen why do some people ,including myself, get gyno post cycle. I have heard of people getting it months after a cycle is complete?All i know is ,i dont get puffy nipps anymore post cycle,since i have used this approach. Results are enough to make a believer out of me!

[Juice Authority]

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Originally posted by pigmeat
then why do some people ,including myself, get gyno post cycle. I have heard of people getting it months after a cycle is complete?All i know is ,i dont get puffy nipps anymore post cycle,since i have used this approach. Results are enough to make a believer out of me!

My original contention was that proviron does prevent estrogen build-up although I can't back that up with relevant scientific data. Then I decided to play Devil's advocate. In any case, let's say for arguement's sake it does reduce estrogen levels. While proviron "might" be preventing estrogen related side effects like gyno is it also suppressing your hpta, which hinders natural test rebound. There are much better things to take to reduce estrogen related sides post cycle. Nolva and Arimidex would be much better alternatives than proviron post-cycle.

[pigmeat]

Tweethttps://fitnessgeared.com/forum/showt...&threadid=9664 are you not suggesting the use of proviron post cycle here?

[pigmeat]

Tweetanother! https://fitnessgeared.com/forum/showt...e&pagenumber=3 as you can see,small billy bathgate and your buddy Big Cat say that it is not suppressive to htpa levels.

[stonecold54]

Tweetpigmeat: JA is taking a position for positions sake. he is not saying he believes one way or another. in a round about way he is trying to get people to throw evidence out for either postition so we can all make a more educated use of proviron. correct me if I am wrong JA

[pigmeat]

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Originally posted by stonecold54
pigmeat: JA is taking a position for positions sake. he is not saying he believes one way or another. in a round about way he is trying to get people to throw evidence out for either postition so we can all make a more educated use of proviron. correct me if I am wrong JA

that is all i am doing also. The only evidence i have either way is experience and what i have been told by the likes of Fonz, bigcat,small, B2,ect... Scientific evidence is not my catergory of specialty